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And so I just wanted to share my share my experience with you guys and it was pretty awesome to see if you get to see one albeit it was in the brush. Erler is a senior naturalist at the Squam Lakes Natural Science Center in Holderness. They sent it already. Sue Morse: First and foremost if you have color or if you could see details of color look at the front of the face around the Pumas muzzle the muzzle itself is pure white. Peter Biello: Well I want to ask Patrick about one of these stories a few years ago you had a story about someone who claimed to. So you know until I found those two scats I didn't think that mountain lions were here in the east. Join as a $8 per month sustainer and get our brand-new owl umbrella! So I certainly can't dispute anything that they said there's no evidence for me to go by to verify or say what my thoughts are on the situation. 1957. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all along the waykilled a beaver near the Quabbin Reservoir in Central Massachusetts, left behind prints and DNA at that site, and then was hit by a car in Connecticut. It was in the spring flash kind of early summer and my wife looked at you look at the size of an adult bear and we were up in arms. The second story window through about 30 feet away from it. Fear for others and those two polarizing opinions on the situation is what I believe brings out mystique and Sam you know I take kind of a long view on this. Administrative Links. Peter Biello: Wow. John you're on the air. Caller: Hi. Patrick Tate: In theory it's a passing ball of a court and it goes wherever the bottom Ball wants to go. I came to a stop and it was and I've seen a lot of bobcats in my time and I just came to a stop it was just sort of confused about what I was seeing. Mountain Lions in New Hampshire-Fact or Fiction 3,207 views Jul 31, 2019 78 Dislike Share Save New Hampshire Fish and Wildlife 634 subscribers During my thirty-one career at the New. Monday, December 5th: Mountain Lions in New Hampshire? Patrick Tate: And there's one other way to model that is the same animal. Yeah I did. By Eric Orff. I think that you probably are. Author of The last woman in the forest on Saturday July 13th at 7 p.m. at Warner town hall Warner historical dawg. Get your tickets today and one for fifty dollars or six for 150 at NH PR and board. www.wildlife.state.nh.us, Buy or Renew Your Saltwater Fishing License, Great Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve. support for an HBO who comes from you our listener Sam from advanced in you a local New Hampshire nonprofit specializing in college student loans and student refinancing options. Sue Morse: The big cat really commands the utmost respect not so much fear but fascination. Peter Biello: We at this e-mailed comment from Michael. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. Peter Biello: Mm hmm. These young males are tracking looking for mates and if they don't find a mate they just keep moving and moving and moving. Phone number 1 800. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. Think you've seen a mountain lion. Every other Friday on Morning Edition NHPRs Sam Evans-Brown tracks down answers to questions about the environment and outdoors for our listeners in a segment we call Ask Sam.. OK. Rick van de Poll: Rick and I would add that if a mountain lion male takes up residence and successfully finds a female as pets there's gonna be a lot more evidence there will be like deer carcasses up in trees and territorial marking and claw marks and tracks and it you know dispersal is gonna be very tough to see or observed but residential parrots a totally different story. Caller: Are probably. Pat ruse and he was sampling doing DNA samples from cats in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. And there are thousands of mountain lions killed every year legally through hunting, and there have been untold tens of thousands of mountain lions killed by hunters over the last hundred years, says Mark Elbroch, the Puma Program Director for Panthera, a global wild cat conservation organization, So even the folks who live with mountain lions still have a fancy and see something thats not there to me thats incredible.. It's not an emerging endangered species no work no there are there are populations in specific states so the Florida panther is is an endangered species that sub population is in fact listed under the Endangered Species Act. We'll hear more about the mountain lions impact and the role it plays in the ecosystem. Rick van de Poll: Rick van de Poll so I was a non-believer as well. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. Mike you're on the air. Peter Biello: I did mention four feet nose to tail would be kind of small for a mountain lion. Caller: It had to be a mountain lion convinced I was about 30. Thanks for a great thanks. Peter Biello: Hmm. New Hampshire Public Radio | Peter Biello: They make great mascots at least. 50 feet above the most. Information online ad an age student loans dawg. You know one of the the biggest questions I have about that is it points to how much we don't know and if in fact we don't know enough. Peter Biello: Sam I wanted to ask you a little bit about that first and then turn to Patrick Tate efficient game. DNA from scat or from fur, a clear track that is confirmed by an expert, or a photo that clearly shows a mountain lion. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. So when we talk about the threshold of evidence required to say for sure you have seen a mountain lion it is rather high. Well thanks for sharing. This is where things start breaking down when you so I get pictures with this great description and one of my favorite stories is a great description what the witness and then so I called the witness and wanted information from them and the person says What are you talking about. Sam Evans-Brown has been working for New Hampshire Public Radio since 2010, when he began as a freelancer. So here we have you know a very qualified biologist who who found a print took a plaster cast found a scat send it to a university. Something along those lines. Patrick Tate: Martin Like what about Panther Panther saying animals same animal and like a bit of trivia Guinness Book of World Records says the animal with the most names is in English alone they're supposedly 40 names for Mount lion. He said matter of fact I do. For all the men out there that don't realize it. But you won't find evidence of their existence in paw prints in the snow or a deer carcass in a tree. Women control our lives. Sam Evans-Brown: Well this might be a good moment to talk about hoaxes. Think you've seen a mountain lion? Caller: Hey guys how you doing. If so that's for us as an agency. Just. Enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, and then try again. Sunny today high temperatures low to mid 80s it'll be clear tonight overnight lows in the 50s for tomorrow sunshine with high temperatures mid to upper 80s. Caller: Oh yeah. And it was unmistakable. New Hampshire Fish and Game Department says there's no proof. So hard to know hard to refute if there's no interest in making up a story which many people of course do then I would respond the same way as Pat did. The supervisor that hired me in the game division in October of 1978 passed on to me this whole big folder of mountain lion information and sightings going back probably a couple decades. And now that everyone and their mother has a remote camera in their back yard its just so, so unlikely that there are resident, breeding mountain lions in New England that are living invisibly among us, he says, Its become Big Foot.. Anyways after three weeks I finally found the image on line on a field and stream photo contest and the explanation in the end was the person that set the camera out with another individual and they believed that someone who knew of the camera location saw the similarities put the can't picture on their SD card so it looked like that camera recorded the image that is. So it's there was no question in my mind. Tate said that while a mountain lion sighting in New Hampshire isn't likely, it's not impossible. Email exchange it an HP fraud org or give us a call 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Peter Biello: So if they were female mountain lions here they would be more males just because that's what they're looking for. So what those ranges. And I just said I saw I saw they from behind the shoulder all the way past the long tail. Have it reported down in the Keene area. Peter Biello: This is NHK PR Good morning and HP are summer car raffle is back and now's the time to get your early bird tickets. The American Lion The Saber tooth Tiger and this was the one that survived. So Marty can you see what I'm getting at is the public sees different names and thinks that they're different animals but it's all the same animal. Chartered: 1973 . She quotes a biologist in Lyme New Hampshire who who is keeping two mountain lions himself so in the not too distant past in the early nineteen hundreds it was perhaps more common and still in Maine. And why would they what. Thank you. Long before NASA was asked to put a man on the moon one engineer had already figured out how to get there. The states never denied mountain lions are here, and theyve never admitted mountain lions are here. Peter Biello: There have been several alleged sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. So what counts as verifiable evidence? HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. And they asked me about the tail which I just did not remember that tail out of that whole experience. Second when I when they did forward it from Wyoming to to Michigan you know this was coming right from sample 18 and 19 had no remarkable differences from known mountain lions from Michigan or Wyoming. Sam Evans-Brown: I just want to say the bang and word you just heard I think to me exemplifies why it's really hard to come up with with positive you know 100 percent certain evidence that you've that what you've got is a mountain lions. BRADFORD, N.H. - All that snow in parts of the Northeast has more than just kids jumping for winter joy. And Rick van de Poll naturalist and founder of ecosystem management consultants of New England. So so they're just a very resilient species and they're pretty they're pretty neat. Peter Biello: Thank you for sharing that. Which goes back to the Connecticut Connecticut cat and what not. We we hear that there is allegedly a government conspiracy to deny the existence of mountain lions here in New Hampshire so I guess a local government conspiracy. About Lions. Patrick Tate: So the individuals can say that but for an agency that's based on science and what not to to go off with no evidence and then get into that giant debate and all these other issues and put credibility at risk I don't think that would be a great path to take. There were several sightings in CT over the last few months. Thanks for calling. It traveled all the way from from you know Minnesota to New York without being so seen Patrick take. First off if the standard for an agency to go forward with the public and put out a press release that them outlines here their believers are going to say I told you they'd been here the whole time. Well let's talk a little bit about that. We are the second most-forested state in the country, and those forests can be impenetrable snarls (part of why the Northeast is notoriously a difficult place to hunt deer), and while there are people in a lot of those woods, because the cats have been absent for a few generations now, most of those people dont know what a cougar scrape or latrine look and smell like. That's why we always go back to the physical evidence to support what they're reporting. And they were using all the habitat. Here she is talking about how to identify a mountain lion. Have you heard stories do you have questions about the mountain line. So so in 2011 a mountain lion was killed in a car accident in Connecticut a car hit a mountain lion and killed it. There are mountain lion in Massachusetts. Post your sightings and NH photos here! And what was really remarkable about the whole thing was I was maybe a half mile down on all buildings. Peter Biello: So let's say Rick that it was confirmed that there that there are mountain lines here in New Hampshire. It's good to talk to you. I'll send it to you. For starters, part of the confusion might come from the fact that the eastern cougar was taken off the endangered species list earlier this year. Peter Biello: Ok weird question but do they make good pets. Theyve always said when we have verifiable evidence to say a mountain lion has been, is, or was in the state that wed acknowledge that and give that information out, says Pat Tate, the furbearer biologist with New Hampshire Fish and Game, who insists theres no conspiracy. I just stood there just a second and I came to a complete stop and then I ran away. We live around Cold Springs Campground and it was undeniably a mountain lion. Peter Biello: And Carl before you continue I think Patrick Tate just give me a second. Well let me ask maybe Pat and Rick about this. N.H.'s Fish and Game department says there's no proof. And you know it's rather interesting because certainly there are those you as a case of mistaken identity or they wanted to see something that perhaps they actually didn't. No evidence and other states where Mountain lights have turned up. Were there any differences between these two that we could have noticed right off. So it is possible to see male Mountain lions roam into the northeast - there was one hit by a car in CT a number of years back - but we don't have a breeding population of Mountain lions in New England. I mean so what what is the practical change that it would bring to New Hampshire if any. And so so with their limited staff and limited budget that is that is more and more limited every year because you know fewer people are buying hunting and fishing licenses. They reported seeing the big tail and everything everything. I wanted to get your thoughts on the mystique of the mountain lion start with you Rick. The females disperse a shorter range and once they find a vacant home range they stay in that location and live there. For over 38 years the Saddleback Mountain Lions have offered people a chance to give back to their community. Peter Biello: When did you allegedly see a mountain lion. So do they. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. But if people are still seeing mountain lions, why is the state and federal government seeking to COVER IT UP!? When you talk about a bobcat Bobcat maybe 80 90 pounds and then a mountain lion could be between 130 and 180 pounds. He writes As a farmer I come across many outdoorsman looking to hunt our property had a conversation with one who believed very strongly that we had mountain lions in New Hampshire. And it's not really strong. David Erler says some of them probably have. Known to exist in the state for over well over a hundred years. There'd be there'd be all sorts of you know basically a lot of hassle required if that were to happen. Patrick Tate: I've from all the situations I've read and learned about wildlife. Its distinctive featurethe one that sets it apart from other North American wild catsis its tail, which is thick and often as long as its body. And the second question is this a behavior mountain lions exhibit. I really really enjoyed listening to this program so thank you all very much. Patrick Tate: It became a very interesting investigation over time because it started becoming. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. From: Boomerdog in OK 08-Oct-07 Had great trees behind it beautiful ferns on the ground so it brought me down on the site and the ferns on the ground matched. Select image for larger view. Tell us your story. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. Can we go to the site. Sam Evans-Brown: Well and I think and the last takeaway here is everyone I think probably agrees that any possible sightings that have been seen. But along the lines of the conspiracy theories as you mentioned earlier there there was a bit of a sense on behalf of what I'll call the promo online community who felt that fishing gain maybe not even so much in a spoken policy but maybe sort of an unspoken policy did not want to find themselves in a situation where they had to spend money to create a management plan and so forth. Thanks very much. So give us a call now. Let's go now to to Kyle in Keene I believe Kyle is this Kyle Jarvis from the Keene Sentinel a former reporter and former reporter. And as the biologist who's gonna stand on this and if I'm going to say this is a proven picture I need to be able to stand on it so soundly and have the evidence so I going to go through it with a fine tooth comb kept picking pieces apart trying to answer these pieces. Which brings us to the next question, what are the odds that some of these reported sightings (which, when I posted about this on twitter, I immediately started to get as well) are actually people seeing a mountain lion? If it's someone that has an illegal captive animal that is accustomed to humans those leave a lot of evidence because they want to go around humans to find food meaning they're used to being fed by humans. The engineers Dan Colgan our senior producer is Allan Grimm. And trying to figure out the little pieces to identify him so I bring up the names the differences but the appearances can be confusing for some. We'd love to have you in the queue. Right. WMUR NH Chronicle Mountain Lions in NH Part I and Part II. So they're scary. And those are not the same things. Maps of Trapping Take by Town 1994 to 2004. So you want identifiable backgrounds. They get a lot of media attention but compared to the the amount of times that a mountain lion could attack a person but doesn't because they don't typically view us as prey. Using DNA and physical evidence, state environmental officials said they determined that the animal. Peter Biello: Oh okay. Sam what's the incentive for the government to deny allegedly. OK. The way that we define species has undergone a revolution with the advent of DNA testing. It's unfortunate that that kind of thing happens as often as it does. That's next time on one day. Mountain lions don't usually travel more than 100 miles from where they are born. There's these animals aren't coming with a map saying oh I want to go here. I live pretty much on the town line of Greenfield just a couple of miles down in the Greenfield. So the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station has a database on mountain lion and they can identify. Really appreciate it. Current conditions in New Hampshire would support a mountain lion, according to Tate, as forests have returned, allowing for prey species to become more prevalent. Is this kind of a typical story. Give today. Seems reasonable! Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. County road and all of a sudden a big cat jumps out of the woods over a stone wall stood in the middle of the dirt road as I rode towards it. Absolutely. Are these big cats back?Subscribe to WMUR on YouTube now for more: http://bit.ly/1lOjX9CGet more Manchester news: http://wmur.comLike us: http://facebook.com. Peter Biello: Yeah. I mean that so many of them are false sightings we. He told me that on one of his many scouting trips for Black Bear he found a deer carcass up in a tree. Patrick Tate: Well I've never seen an Easter cougar so I can't say when I've handled these 10 cougars and whatnot. So I just brought up the bobcat thing because the location is fascinating to me that that that location we have Bobcats existing but that location we have a mountain lion report because it's a developed area and which brings me back to earlier what I had said it's a bouncing ball. Mountain lions leave a lot of sign. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. I was a Bobcat we saw it and I have a picture of it. It doesn't make much sense because you know mountain lions are as we as we said before. I mean there was this one lady I remember and tough tomorrow. Almost all species disperse greater distances than females. The DNA the DNA that they were able to pull from the cat suggested that it was a dispersed mountain lion that came. I'm sorry go ahead you're on the air. Caller: I have yeah. Mountain lion or cat running across. Peter Biello: Well Karl Jarvis a former reporter for The King's son Nile thank you very much for for calling in and sharing your perspective and to his point Patrick T. I mean yes we haven't met the scientific burden of proof here in New Hampshire as far as physical evidence is is concerned but is there room at Fish and Game For A kind of an informal nod to all of the people who have somehow convinced themselves and possibly some others that yeah there may be occasional sightings here. What gets confusing is when you have a large adult animal and a smaller juvenile animal of a different species you can now step start beginning talking about overlapping body weights and sizes. They're just moving around freely. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. I'm Peter Biello in for Laura NOI. JavaScript must be enabled for some features to display properly. And I think this is a really interesting story for a couple of reasons one is that it proves what Pat was saying which that basically from New York state where its traces was really picked up on a game camera around Lake George all the way down to Connecticut there was numerous. Do you want to see real, living mountain lions that do exist in New Hampshire. I saw that had this giant the bobcat had this giant sweeping which is John Bobcat don't have big sweeping tails. We did a short segment about mountain lion sightings earlier this year and and after which I was sent a photo and also a video recording that was mostly just audio because it was so dark the photo just a quick reverse Google image search you can put images online and see where else where else they've been posted revealed that the photo had been taking out taken out in Wyoming and has been used you know hundreds of times to claim and the person who sent it to me said it had been taken New Hampshire. NH Fish and Game relies on physical evidence to answer questions about the presence or absence of mountain lion in the state. And it came out we could see it had and we could see its long swooping tail. So try to take photographs if you see something like this. Patrick Tate: So I'm not sure what subspecies of cat they're using to differentiate by those markings but once she was describing the White other face in the black. There have been several sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. They create these scrapes where theyre communicating with each other with scent. Sam Evans-Brown: So Tim so this cat's been been referenced a couple of times I think we should talk about it specifically lay the whole story out for folks who haven't heard the story because it's actually I think really indicative of a lot of stuff for talking about. Sam Evans-Brown: Well first I want to sort of explain why what the theory is but then also throw a bit of cold water on it because I don't think there's much much logic behind it but essentially is that if fish and game were to acknowledge that there was a population of Mount lions in the state there's a chance that something like a listing under the federal Endangered Species Act might happen and then there'd be you know some they'd have to put a plan in place to protect the species there'd be you know restrictions put on development. You could trace that was this same cat from point to point to point. Do you get a lot of these these these things that end up being hoaxes. And so maybe before I go to you recommend I ask you Patrick Tate is the standard too high. What do you think that. Well Is DNA the most reliable means we have of identifying whether or not what we saw is actually a mountain lion. So one thing that I find fascinating about this Connecticut cat was six months between the New York situation where they found evidence of it too when it was hit by a motor vehicle. It was really muscular looking cat I mean is that like a side angle to me. They create these big latrines that are very obvious. It's not a skinny rope like tail like a housecat. It doesn't happen as much anymore. Copyright New Hampshire Fish and Game Department.An official New Hampshire government website.