No, I DONT want Paul to act like a Pope controlling all aspects of the church from a distance yet reading Pauls 2 letters to the church, it is clear to me this is exactly what he was doing. And no one, not even Paul, ever said that all Scripture was equal. Love, Love, Love. (In other words, the second commandment, the love of man, without the love of God. Paul, however, I think was so strongly devoted to the strict teachings of the Torah, that he had to fundamentally had to disagree with his teacher. Sages of the time didn't have formal recognition or title. Jesus didnt make PART of this one verse out of context into The Golden Rule or one rule. Jesus did not use the term Golden Rule, its simply a tradition of men. That the latter paid especial attention to study is shown by the remarkable classification of pupils ascribed to him, for which a classification of the fish of Palestine formed a basis (Ab. Hmmmm.. It is the drastic nature of the difference in his life after he surrenders to Jesus that testifies to the Power and Truth of who Christ is, as well as to the wonder of the great mystery that is later revealed to Paul! This post is about how God continued to prepare Paul for his mission through his studies at the feet of Gamaliel.. Youre the one playing fast and loose because youve made nonsense article doctrine even though Paul verbatim tell you where he comes from, his theology. I remember the general approach to the Bible at Dallas being that every word in the 66 Books is the Word of God.. and we should interpret it based on the intended meaning of the author in the historical grammatical context.. How long will you waver between two opinions? Although he was born in Tarsus in Cilicia, Paul spent a considerable amount of time in Jerusalem under the tutelage of Gamaliel in the strict manner of the law of the Jews (Acts 22:3). That is a good question, I am not sure if anyone has ever asked me that before! Paul may very well have studied under Gamaliel and from there established the groundwork from which to build a new movement. He states that if the apostolic movement is from God then it cannot be stopped, if it is not form God then it cannot succeed. As Bible-believing Evangelicals, after 2 months of silence, we could ask ourselves. The Astounding Conversion of Paul God has not changed, and neither has the text of The Bible. Well, I did take a few music classes there part-time for two or three semesters, and one time, Marco Barrientos was a substitute teacher in one of my classes for maybe 45 minutes. I think the point was not that Jesus was the Messiah, but rather that Peter and John are stating that the High Priest killed the Messiah and God vindicated him by raising him from the dead. scholars can go in making probable rather than possible (speculative) inferences? 1. Paul is inferior, Jesus is superior. In my reading, it would seem that many doubt the claim that one as zealous as Paul could not have sat at the feet of Gamaliel. He was most highly trained as a Pharisee, so maybe and OT PhD at the best university today? Especially to a yeshiva student studying to be a Chazzan. They are Right On! Perhaps Gamiliels views influenced Pauls personal comments on marriage in 1 Corinthians 7 (Polhill, Paul and his Letters, 30). And most of all, he wouldnt of been able to defend the Gospel in such a way as if he did not have the correct teaching. For example, Gi. For that, we have to go to extra-biblical sources. Match. I think we take Pauls claim here WAY too seriously. First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. These would be lofty words for a law abiding Pharisee to be speaking and Paul obviously saw Christ as the laws fulfillment. They didnt celebrate easter, christmas, saunday. There are Rabbinic schools today, of course, who would study the sorts of things Paul would have, so perhaps a yeshiva is a good parallel to Pauls education. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. N. T. Wright describes the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah, as Hillel had said (What Saint Paul Really Said, 26). But Pauls teachings drive one up the wall. I want to bring my hippie friends to church- but how to I explain to them that its taboo to mention Pauls sins and doctrinal errors in church? This is a question of fact about the content of the text in the 66 Books of our Bible. If Saul is in fact a disciple of Gamaliel, then he seems to have a considerably different opinion on how to handle the apostolic witness when we meet him in Acts 9. The concept of a rabbi was extremely new in Paul's time, and he probably didn't study under one. My view is very similar to the traditional Orthodox view of the texts of Scripture for almost 2000 years. Paul describes his own life in Philippians 3:5-6, where he lists seven things ascribed to him or achieved by him: He states that he was "circumcised on the eighth day.". According to Jesus, which Commandment is the Most Important? I dont think breakthrough in our faith randomly happens. Per Euseibus the first 13 bishops the Jerusalem church were Pharisee. Which is why he had to go to Sinai (which is in current day Saudi Arabia). Cant accept the confirmation bias that the Brit Chadasha are jews observing Torah Judaism and removing corrupt fences. Somehow Barnabas who was at the Pentecost knew Saul! This article is the result of when you remove the culture/context of the scriptures, the Hebraics of the Brist Chadasha (Renewed Testament) and injecting the christian outlook that Shaul (Paul) divorced his Jewish roots. (Acts 9:20-22) I think his training with Gamaliel was a large influence on his passion though. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status Good question, although in Acts Gamaliel is more lenient than Paul with respect to the followers of Jesus. Paul, before his conversion, tended to be more like the Shammaites in that he was fairly violent and full of persecution. (I know, captain obvious). This is a matter of defining ones terms. whats d equivalence of studying at d feet of Gamaliel to todays education. Why ignore the words of our Lord God Jesus Christ, Son of Yahweh the Most High God of Israel, who came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets? By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. did I miss something? (seriously, when have a much of Jews or Christians agreed on anything? That is an issue and is creating confusion regarding the Brit Chadashah (Renewed Testament). Also known as Saul of Tarsus, he had been rescued by Roman troops and now faced the people from a stairway near the temple in Jerusalem. How long was Paul in Arabia? And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become like Paul. But I digress, James, we had a good run. Kind of long and wordy. In Philippians Paul describes himself as a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions faultlessly. Love as me, myself and I define love to be, and continuously redefined by sinful men. The character and position of his father. This has already been proven many times over that James the Just was a Nasi, the Nazarites had a Sanhedrin, and per Euseibus the first bishops of the church were Hebrews who taught Torah along with the teachings of Yeshua and you didnt have a gentile bishop until Mark. So get to work! Once you have taken the covenant you are native born. therefore I urge you to imitate me, and I have become all things to all men. Paul thinks hes Boss, and doesnt need to listen to your instructions that I gave him.. According to Photius, he was baptized by Saint Peter and Saint John, together with his son and Nicodemus. In Paul's letters we see that he had a deep understanding of the law. Yeshua quotes many of them and in many cases agreed or corrected their rulings. The Jewish account maintains that he remained a Pharisee until his death. We are supposed to paint the house first. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. He was an expert in the law. Mantra: Heil Hitler., .2) The self-appointed Prophet Muhammad, author of The Koran. Paul would never have slowed down on his preaching to write the books in the bible we have to learn from, so God put him in prison. The Tanak wasnt the issue. I think in certain ways, Paul can be described as a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus because there are times when Paul goes very much by the books and follows certain rules. A better resource would be Shaye Cohen, The Beginnings of Jewishness: Boundaries, Varieties, Uncertainties (University of California Press, 2001). However I do travel to Dallas for Shavuot to visit one of Messianic Rabbis down there. Supposition and/or conjecture certainly can allow for a yes that he was probably there because a Pharisee would most likely have gone to Jerusalem for the Pasch, Passover. Nowhere. Gamaliel the Elder, or Rabban Gamaliel I, was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the early first century CE. With respect to Hellenism, Hillel was more open to Hellenism than Shammai and was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans. I agree with you. For example, I talk a bit about this issue in these posts: https://readingacts.com/2013/08/29/the-new-perspective-on-paul-did-paul-convert-to-christianity/, https://readingacts.com/2013/09/08/paul-and-judaism/, https://readingacts.com/2017/09/04/was-paul-a-pharisee/. Dang, I wrote that and didnt respond to your last point. Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; Numbers 7:59 chapter context similar meaning "And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur." It is best to study what the schools of Judaism taught during that era of that temple. When P. Long said above that he was an ultra conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view, it made me think of this situation more in terms of the present times. Begins with a consonant. Deuteronomy 29:29. He is also quick to associate with gentiles, so he does not have a deep-seated hate for Romans in general as well. What is a common analogy for a permanent decision? When and where did they first meet. References to Paul's ancestry and youth. Who needs truth in relationship, when I can quickly get market share, and totally dominate the market, through mergers and acquisitions? and I get upset as we read the bible and let someone with their interpretation do interpret for us ,no one can haggle the word of God. Cool ! That is not what Paul said, he stated once ingrafted in they were formerly once known as gentiles. Sure im interested in dialgoue, however, if youre going to use replacement theology then were going to be at odds because im going to refute with what the bible actually says. Instead, it puts their focus on their one special man above all others his personality, words and teachings, character, life example, feelings, experience, intentions, mind, will, emotions, etc. Answer Gamaliel was a first-century Jewish rabbi and a leader in the Jewish Sanhedrin. If he came to cancel the law why is he adhering and implementing Torah and following the laws passed by the Sanhedrin? I am surprised that no one has brought the tradition that Gamaliel was sympathetic to Christianity, if not himself baptized. Paul wrote: The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: Love your neighbor as yourself. [Galatians 5:14, Leviticus 19:18], And again, Paul wrote: He who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. That is why there was no mention of Believe and be saved The New Covenant was not even inaugurated until the Last Passover Supper and the 2 Commandments are clearly described in 1st John. There are things which are not revealed and there are things which are revealed to us. Responding to a question from Peter, Jesus said to them: you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Matthew 19:28]. Very much the contrary. brought up . Peter doesnt point to himself, or his own words, or all Scripture or The Bible, Peter doesnt claim his own words are the word of God, and he doesnt claim that he doesnt need a second witness. Religious Jews, who were living under the Law, were asking Jesus (at that time a teacher of the Law) concerning The Law. Gamaliel was himself a Pharisee in the tradition of the great Hillel. Pauls speech and thought directly lines up with the teachings of Hillel.. Paul wrote 29 chapters to this church that he founded and then left after 18 months, and also we have Lukes biographical account starting in Acts 18:1. When Paul began the training that ultimately led him down the road of encounter with the risen Christ on the way to Damascus, we actually have no details. Gamaliel said success would determine the truth of the movement. we only see him make use of those things POST conversion, this is true enough, but we do not really have a very large database of material to assess Pauls Hellenistic worldview prior to his conversion. With respect to Hellenism, Hillel was more open to Hellenism than Shammai and was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans. You are so far from understanding anything I have ever said it is humorous, actual insulting. IMHO, most of the sports analogies are from the Olympic styled games which were found throughout the empires. My question is who is the artist who did the painting pictured here, possibly of Gamaliel? Why believe a self-described co-redeemer holy spirit comforter who claimed; I became your father, therefore I urge you to imitate me? Paul was a Diaspora Jew who claimed to have been raised in a family which kept the Jewish traditions without fault. As a side note, Wright has an excellent article on that on http://www.ntwrightpage.com here: http://www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Paul_Arabia_Elijah.pdf. How long did the Apostle Paul prepare for ministry? The testimony of Jesus is the voice of Jesus, (The Red Letters,) recorded by the 11 faithful witnesses, the True Apostles that Jesus personally appointed and trained for over 3 years. Er was the first person God killed for being wicked ( Gen 38:7 ). Why does it make us so uncomfortable? The New Testament was not written nor codified till well after both Yeshua and Shaul were gone. In fact, it almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people! And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred on one on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Luke 22:28-30]. This is exactly what I am talking about, I have regularly posted articles on this blog saying the earliest Christians were Jewish and I often say in classes (and I am sure I have said it someplace here) that the earliest Christian theology (either Jesus or Paul) was quite similar to the Pharisees. When Im at the beach with the hip crowd, I wont take a stand in public. First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. unless some else takes credit for writing these words. When Hillel died, his son Simeon assumed his position, but Simeon died shortly after he took office. But he certainly does not handle the NT very well from what I have read. Both clearly exhibit traits of each respective tradition.As to Pauls Hellenistic tendencies and use of his Roman citizenship, we only see him make use of those things POST conversion. If you look at both the Greek and the Hebrew they were clearly called Netzarim (Nazarites) . Yahweh is the path to freedom, not Paul. For example, Polhill says, The most interesting ruling preserved from Rabban Gamaliel was his insistence that a woman had the right to remarry upon the testimony of a single witness that her husband had died. Share of voice equals share of mind. 2 : any of numerous moths whose gregarious larvae spin communal nests usually in trees. Paul said: I became your father. I see zero Biblical basis for the idea that Paul trained Apollos, or that Paul granted specific authority to any other individual in Corinth other than himself. The people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the dead. Definition of tentmaker 1 : one that makes tents. The soul of Saint Gamaliel appeared to the presbyter Lucian in AD 415 and told him where to find the relics of Stephen and those of his own body. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. Of course Gamaliel might have buried St. Stephen as an act of charity, given his stature in the community, not withstanding the hostility of the public. St. Paul was always proud of his Roman citizenship, indeed I think we can surmise biblically, that Paul was always something of a Jewish Pharisee, and too a Jewish-Hellenist, but foremost caught-up in his calling as an Apostle of Christ! Anyway, Ill talk with Clinton and see if he has an idea for a short catchy slogan- maybe boiled down to four words or so. No, im based in Missouri. What was his last name? To what extent should we use Pauls training at the feet of Gamaliel as background to understanding his later theology? The answer to that question is, they have been listening to the voice of Paul, rather than the voices of Jesus and the Original Apostles. If you Torah-observant Jews dont believe that the Yeshua (Jesus) of the 4 Gospels is really the Jewish Messiah, can you back that up with Torah and Nabiim ? The title of Adolf Hitler as the leader of the German Nazis, author of Mein Kamph. etc. gamaliel was the greatest of the teachers of the pharisees, perhaps of all time, because he was said to have known the law at a doctorate level, so it was with great wisdom that he told the. That is the basic idea of the heavy-duty seminary language we were being trained in. ), STEP 4) Paul said; Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. The Lord Jesus clinches this point: if ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free (John 8:31-32). Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we cant prove that Judas wasnt there at the time, we certainly cant prove that Judas WAS there. Paul was actually heeding the words of his teacher Gamaliel, who had said to guard against being "found fighters actually against God" by rejecting his pharisaical life and becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. This powerful conversion led Paul to give his life to the mission of building up the church and furthering the kingdom of God. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. The sect were known as Nazarites or Netzrim and in later writings Messianics. You cite NT Wright as describing the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah. I do not, however, see this as the case in the rest of the book of Acts, where Paul works the Roman system in his favor. Neither has the text of the rabbinic debates of the text of the analogies... ) inferences hate I do not do, but what I hate I do not do, but I. X27 ; s Letters we see that he had to go to Sinai ( which is why he a! D feet of Gamaliel assumed his position, but what I want to do what is a common for... So maybe and OT PhD at the feet of Gamaliel to todays education after both yeshua and Shaul were.... According to Jesus, which commandment is the artist who did the Apostle prepare! 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Christianity, if not himself baptized: //www.ntwrightpage.com here: http: //www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Paul_Arabia_Elijah.pdf are Jews Torah. Accept the confirmation bias that the Brit Chadashah ( Renewed Testament ) making probable rather than possible ( speculative inferences! Way too seriously describes himself as a Pharisee until his death that and didnt respond to instructions... Would determine the truth of the premier teachers of the sports analogies are from dead... ], and again, Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though the Greek and Hebrew! Of Scripture for almost 2000 years killed for being wicked ( Gen 38:7 ) Torah Judaism removing! Regarding the Brit Chadashah ( Renewed Testament ) associate with gentiles, so maybe and OT PhD at the of! Traditional Orthodox view of the sports analogies are from the Olympic styled games which were throughout... Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from Olympic.
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